Podcast: “Grey Divorce”, the Divorce over 50
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In this transcribed interview at Zoomer Radio AM740 in Toronto, family and divorce lawyer Lorne Fine of Fine & Associates Professional Corporation shares his experience and advice on “grey divorce”, the separation of married couples over 50. Read the interview below, or listen to the podcast at the top of the page.
Podcast on Grey Divorce (Transcript): Recorded September 26, 2020
You’re listening to an interview, taken from The Tonic Show and Podcast heard exclusively on Zoomer radio. To download or listen to the original episode or other episodes of The Tonic, please visit www.thetonic.ca
Interviewer: Lorne J Fine LLB is a well-known and experienced lawyer in Toronto, whose practice is solely dedicated to the area of family and divorce law. He graduated from Osgoode Hall Law School and was called to the Bar in 1992. He is the senior managing lawyer at Fine and Associates, Professional Corporation, Family and Divorce Lawyers. Lorne has been interviewed on several occasions regarding major family law issues in Ontario, including appearances on Global Television and CHCH Television. He was the resident, family and divorce lawyer for the radio program Goldhawk Fights Back on this station. Welcome to the show, sir. How are you?
Lorne J Fine: Thank you for having me.
Interviewer: So there’s a phenomenon out there that people may or may not be aware of, and that is this notion of grey divorce, right? I’m sure you see that in your practice.
Lorne J Fine: Yes, well, nowadays it’s becoming more and more common.
Interviewer: What is a grey divorce? How would you define it?
Lorne J Fine: A grey divorce refers to a trend that relates to the separation of older couples who have been married for a long time. Usually it’s people over 50, so the term is a reference to the hair colour of that demographic. This phenomenon happens a lot more than people care to think about. You know, most people think that divorce happens in the first few years of marriage. You make a mistake, you move on, but these people have typically been together a while. So, people ask me when do people get divorced? Sometimes it’s due to the seven-year itch. Sometimes it’s even earlier than that. Sometimes there’s a midlife crisis or it happens when people become empty nesters. Now we’re seeing more and more people who are over 50, who say, you know, I no longer want to remain in an unhappy marriage.
Interviewer: So it’s kind of a new category for people going through divorce, what’s driving it. Like, what are you seeing? Why is it happening?
Lorne J Fine: Well, there are all kinds of reasons why people get divorced. Usually there is a communication breakdown, infidelity, financial issues, physical or emotional abuse. Those are the typical reasons why people get divorced, But, for a grey divorce, there are a number of other reasons. People are living longer, so you know, if people are living until their late seventies or eighties, people start thinking, do I want to live with this person for the next 30 years? People start re-evaluating their relationships. People stick it out for the kids and then when they hit their 50’s, they say, okay, enough of this. I think another factor is social stigma. The social stigma surrounding divorce has diminished over the years and so now it’s easier for people to accept the word divorce. It’s no longer something that’s embarrassing. It’s easier for people to meet new partners. They go online and it’s easy to find companionship, if that’s what people want. Also, women are working more so they are financially independent. They don’t have to stay in a bad marriage whereas in the past, women were very dependent on their husbands so they stayed in unhappy marriages and that’s not necessarily the case anymore.
Interviewer: I would think it’s not just that women are working more it’s that people are working longer too. Right? So like your life, it’s not just, you’re living longer, but your active years where you’re still working and doing all sorts of things. Like that’s been extended as well,
Lorne J Fine: Right. That goes to your lifespan. You’re working more, you’re living longer and people are re-evaluating their lives and they no longer have to necessarily stay in a bad relationship and they can move on. Another reason people feel that they can move on is because of new medications such as Cialis and Viagra. If people are able to use drugs to help them have sexual relationships with new partners then it makes it easier to create new relationships.
Interviewer: I guess, you know, if you have a partner who isn’t in the same place, right. Who’s decided for whatever reason that they’re not interested in sex, or they’re not interested in that aspect of the relationship anymore. And I mean, obviously you know, if you are, why would you stay or vice versa? Right, right.
Lorne J Fine: People do grow apart. I had a case not too long ago where these people were married for almost 40 years and the husband just wanted to windsurf. He was very fit and active and the wife just wanted to smoke cigarettes and go to bingo. After talking to them both, I realized that the wife just wanted more money so that she could go to bingo, so I helped them reconcile essentially because they didn’t dislike each other. They just had different interests and were growing apart.
Speaker 3: How much money does one need for bingo Lorne?
Lorne J Fine: I don’t know. Apparently, it was a daily habit. They were very different – I don’t know if they’re still together, but I helped them kind of smooth things over, you know, sometimes it’s just not worth getting a divorce when you’re married that long and this couple was essentially retired. They didn’t have a big pie to divide, so it really made sense in that instance to try to make things work.
Interviewer: Yeah. You raised a good point with the pie. Like, you know, for a lot of people, you know, the economic decision, they may not understand what they’re getting into in terms of divorce, right? Because, because for most people, I mean, most Canadians, you know, their primary asset is the matrimonial home. And, and you know, it’s not so easy to live in this great city. If you had to divide up the equity in one home and now create two households from it, you know? Right.
Lorne J Fine: Not just that, I don’t think people realize as well that not only is their house a main asset, but their pensions are also a main asset. You may have a teacher that has been teaching for 30 years and their pension is worth well over a million dollars and all of a sudden they have to divide that and their retirement income substantially decreases so, their plans would have to change substantially. There are all kinds of financial impacts of having a grey divorce.
Interviewer: What else is out there that people may not understand that are implications of a grey divorce?
Lorne J Fine: People may not understand that there are issues with property. You have to divide your property in the event of a separation, right? You have to look at all your property. It’s dividing the difference in the increase in your net worth from the date of marriage, to the date of separation, so it’s not just cutting it down the middle and say 50/50, it’s more than that because there are all kinds of complicated rules, and it can get very complicated. It is really something that people should, if they are considering going through a separation or divorce, consult with a family lawyer – an individual that is experienced in divorce law, to help them through it. You have to plan ahead, because a person’s earning potential is produced and, as we said, the pie is pretty, and it’s highly unlikely that they’re going to accumulate more assets.
Speaker 3: I would have thought like the income is the huge issue, right? Like if you’ve got a divorce and you’re in your thirties, you still have most of your career ahead of you. Right. You can sort of say to yourself, okay, you know, I’m going to take this financial hit. Now, if that’s a factor in your decision, but Hey, you know, I’m doing this, I’m doing that. I’ve got this business, I’m a professional. Or, you know, if you’re the person who’s earning less, you know, maybe you go back to school and you get a degree and you, you earn more because you’re on your own. But when you make that decision in your fifties or sixties, well, that’s probably not going to happen. Right.
Lorne J Fine: Right, and it’s not just income, it’s also assets. It’s highly unlikely that you’re going to rebuild your estate. So you’re absolutely right. I would also get a financial consultant to look at your circumstances and, and for a lot of women, are in the dark about their finances. Their husbands may control the finances and may be the income earner and may control all the assets and liabilities. So, women should, if they are considering going through a grey divorce, learn about their financial circumstances, learn about the assets and liabilities and where everything is and what their spouse makes so that they are more informed.
Interviewer: Yeah. I would imagine one aspect that makes it easier is if you’re doing a grey divorce, you know, child support, you know, becomes less of an issue.
Lorne J Fine: Rarely. If the kids are adults, it’s not an issue. However, spousal support is an issue. Spousal support can be very difficult because essentially if it’s a long-term marriage and it’s a traditional marriage, then support is indefinite. It will last their lifetime. So, for instance, a husband would have to pay a wife support for the rest of their life. But if the husband’s circumstances change, if they have a pension and that’s divided, then that’s going to impact how much the poor can be paid. There is a case called Boston and Boston, which deals with double dipping and states that you can’t get a piece of your spouse’s pension and then expect to get support from that pension as well. So, there are all kinds of important circumstances to consider.
Interviewer: If somebody is contemplating a divorce, what other advice would you give them?
Lorne J Fine: I would tell them that they should get a family lawyer to guide them through the process and that they should try to negotiate a resolution. You know, very few people want to actually go to court and have a battle at that age. Litigation is not fun, so people should try to negotiate, try to mediate if they’re planning on getting remarried, but they should have a cohabitation agreement or a marriage contract. There is a case called Kerrigan and Kerrigan where a spouse died unexpectedly at age 57. He had a first wife from whom he wasn’t divorced. He had no separation agreement from his first wife, but he also had a common law spouse at the same time ad they battled over his estate. Had he had a separation agreement from his first spouse. It would have made things a lot easier for a second relationship. So, there are important things to consider if you have a new relationship, you need to tie up loose ends and understand what your finances are. It’s a matter of just preparing for it and protecting your family.
Interviewer: Right. And, you know, I practiced law as a litigator for 20 years and I never touched family law. I don’t have the personality for it, but I’m not one of the, you’re not a touchy-feely guy either, but I, in particular, I’m not suited for that. But also family law is very unique because it’s almost like quicksand. The law changes very rapidly, as opposed to other areas of practice. So, you know, you can find somebody who dabbles in family law, but you really are better off going with somebody who really knows what they’re doing and is up on the law because it can make a huge difference to the end result.
Lorne J Fine: An experienced family law lawyer can make a very big difference. Family law is all we do. There are lawyers that dabble in it. They may do real estate or they may do criminal as well, but you really want to have somebody whose focus is purely family law and who practices it every day. It’s true that I’m not a touchy-feely guy, but I do have other lawyers in my office that are. For me, it’s, it’s a matter of getting a good result and negotiating rather than litigating and to make the process as painless as possible for my clients.
Interviewer: Fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.
Lorne J Fine: Thank you so much for having me.
Interviewer: You’re going to come back next month, right?
Lorne J Fine: Whenever you want me.
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