Podcast: What You Should Know About Ontario Child Support

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In this transcribed interview with Dale Goldhawk of Zoomer Radio AM740 in Toronto, family and divorce lawyer Lorne Fine of Fine & Associates Professional Corporation offers advice on child support.  Read the interview below, or listen to the podcast at the bottom of the page.

Goldhawk Fights Back Podcast:  Recorded May 30, 2013

Dale: Well, it is time for us now to turn our attention away from the Ford brothers. They’ll keep for a while because the issue isn’t going away regardless of those among us. Me included from time to time would wish that it’s going away. The issues are too important and it’s not.

Let’s speak of personal issues, personal interactions between men and women often leading to marriage, then leading to marriage difficulties, then perhaps a separation agreement, and then maybe a divorce. And maybe there are children involved and the whole thing becomes complicated and heartbreaking and it can take over your life. Lorne Fine joins us in the studio. He is our family and divorce lawyer.

Lorne: Thank you for having me.

Dale: Well, you’re most welcome. Get a little closer to that mic so we can actually hear your great voice.

Lorne: Better?

Dale: That kind of situation that I’m laying out there, that pretty well describes a lot of divorces doesn’t it? Certainly of people that I know who’ve been through them.

Lorne: To take over the persons [inaudible 01:31]

Dale: Yeah. It just becomes, you live and breathe it. You know?

Lorne: It can be all consuming. There is no doubt. It can be very stressful. It’s a major life-changing event. It’s almost equivalent to a death, the feeling that are involved. So it can be very stressful. In many cases, it is very stressful. But, hopefully the goal is to resolve your issues as soon as possible and . . .

Dale: And not to be bitter for the rest of your life.

Lorne: That’s the key. Yeah. To move on. To move on.

Dale: The moving on is . . .

Lorne: To have some closure.

Dale: Yeah.

Lorne: But you know with some people . . .

Dale: Jill and I have some friends on those kinds of positions and my god, it’s difficult.

Lorne: It can . . .

Dale: When kids are involved . . .

Lorne: Right.

Dale: . . . and property and feelings and he said and she said.

Lorne: Yes.

Dale: And they just won’t let it go.

Lorne: Yes. Some people have those feelings festering for many years.

Dale: Yeah. Yeah.

Lorne: And other people can, once it’s over, and I have many cases where finally we’ve signed the agreement and it’s done and the party starts crying and they are so happy and . . .

Dale: Well, that’s good. That’s a better outcome. Isn’t it?

Lorne: That’s great. Yeah. They’re happy. There’s closure. I hope they move on with their lives. They say they’re going to move on with their lives.

Dale: But you’re a bit of a social worker sometimes. You’ve got to be. You’ve got bring interpersonal skills . . .

Lorne: Yes.

Dale: . . . yourself into these things.

Lorne: Yes. I’m not trained as a social worker. I’m not trained as a psychologist.

Dale: No, but you’re being trained on the job. I would say.

Lorne: On the job training. Yes, exactly. I have people I can refer them to.

Dale: Yeah. That’s right.

Lorne: There’s some hand holding involved obviously. You try to be empathetic.

Dale: Yeah. Sure. I get it. It’s a tough job. I also get that. We’re going to talk about child support today.

Lorne: That’s right.

Dale: And the first question you’ve noted a few things here we should be talking about. And this is a great question because I hear this all the time in terms of people e-mail thinking I can help them with their divorce.

Lorne: But you have knowledge. You know all. Don’t you?

Dale: Yeah. Knowing all and being able to do something to it are two entirely different things. Right? When does child support end? It’s an established amount. It goes on and on and on. When does it stop?

Lorne: That’s a good question. I guess the answer is the good thing is eventually kids grow up and eventually kids are adults and they are no longer entitled to support. When it ends? There is no magic number. Some people say to me, “Oh good. My child’s 21. Now I’m finished paying support.” And the child’s still in school. The answer is no. There’s no magic age where all of a sudden your child support obligations end. The test is basically, is the child a dependent? Is the child enrolled in a full-time program of education? If that’s the case, then the child support continues.

Dale: But those sound like two different issues. Is the child grown up, say 21, 23, whatever. Independent or attending a university or college, those are two separate arguments. Right?

Lorne: Well, I guess . . .

Dale: Or are they the same?

Lorne: They’re basically the same. I would think that if well, let’s think. If . . .

Dale: Well, the child could be out of work. Let’s say you’re totally unemployed and you’re living in the basement and you’re 25 years old.

Lorne: Okay. Well, in that case . . .

Dale: Would you support that kid?

Lorne: No. If the child’s not enrolled in a program of education, if the child is depended and has maybe mental issues, maybe psychological issues.

Dale: Oh, I understand.

Lorne: Okay. Then the child’s still a dependent. But if the child just wants to play video games in the basement and is not going to school, then you can say, “Okay. The child is no longer entitled to child support.”

Dale: But otherwise, if the child growing up does not go to university or is not in university, does the obligation end for the paying spouse at 21? Not that simple. Is it?

Lorne: It’s not that simple. There’s no magic number. There’s no magic age. But like I said, the test is, is the child no longer a dependent? Even if the child goes to school and say a full course load is five courses and the child takes two courses, that’s not enough. You’re not enrolled in a full-time program of education.

Dale: It’s got to be full-time. It says that in the law.

Lorne: It has to be a full-time program of education. Right.

Dale: Okay.

Lorne: So some people think, “Oh, my child finished a B.A. and now my support ends. Not necessarily. You child may get a B.A. and maybe your child’s very bright and wants to get an M.B.A.

Dale: Want to go to law school or something.

Lorne: Law school. I don’t know why but maybe.

Dale: Hey, listen. My son’s going to law school.

Lorne: That’s true. I know that. That’s right.

Dale: But I’m not paying for that one.

Lorne: You’re lucky.

Dale: You know, first degree on me. So second degree on him.

Lorne: Okay. Well, that’s important because that’s also part of the guidelines that the child has an expectation that the child’s going to make a contribution.

Dale: Right. That’s part of it.

Lorne: That’s part of it.

Dale: Yes.

Lorne: Right. So after the child’s contribution then you determine, what we are talking about is extraordinary expenses, educational expenses now. So just so if I backtrack for a second. There’s two parts of support. One is base support, based on your income, how many kids you have, that’s base support. And I think before we went through the guidelines.

Dale: Yeah, roughly speaking.

Lorne: Charted by how many kids you have, what your income is, and that’s how much support you get.

Dale: Your income factors into this. The income is the pay rank you’re at.

Lorne: That’s right. What your income is. How many kids you have. Then you look at the chart and the guidelines and I think you and I did this once before.

Dale: Yeah.

Lorne: And you then figure out what your base support is. Then on top of your base support is something called special or extraordinary expenses and that can be health expenses, medical expenses, daycare expenses, extra-curricular activities, and post-secondary education. That’s another section 7 expense. So first you look at the child’s contribution. Whether it’s RESP’s, whether maybe a child’s working, and then you figure out the parties respective contributions based on their incomes.

Dale: Right.

Lorne: Proportionately. So it’s a whole formula and you said your child paid for his first education. He’s obviously . . .

Dale: No I did.

Lorne: You paid for . . .

Dale: I paid for it. Let’s get this clear. Okay? All right?

Lorne: And he’s paying for the second.

Dale: That’s right. It’s a little deal we worked out.

Lorne: That’s good.

Dale: I thought was quite appropriate.

Lorne: And what happens is he gets his PhD?

Dale: Well, we’ll have to work on that. Let’s hope that he won’t go in that direction. But we’ll find out as that goes on. But the child support obligation . . .

Lorne: Yes.

Dale: . . . how is that first established?

Lorne: As far as . . .

Dale: I mean, it could be the wife who’s got the big deal job and the husband who’s out of work. In that situation, it would be the wife who would be paying the child support . . .

Lorne: Okay. I see. Yeah.

Dale: . . . if the kids aren’t with the wife.

Lorne: If the . . .

Dale: I have to set up all these qualifiers to make the question work.

Lorne: All right, so the payor. The payor or support is the person who doesn’t have custody of the kids, who’s not living primarily with the kids. That’s the payor. So if the husband has no job and he’s not working, then he’s probably going to pay very little support . . .

Dale: Yeah. Right.

Lorne: . . . to the wife.

Dale: The wife could say to the father. “You’re not working. But you should be working and you quit your job and I know you could be making $50,000 and you should be paying support based on $50,000. And the courts will do that. The courts will say, “You’re intentionally underemployed. You should be paying support based on this amount.” And all those amount have to be set in court. Don’t they?

Lorne: Or in writing.

Dale: Or somehow agreed to between the two parties.

Lorne: Somehow agree to in something in writing.

Dale: Is it mainly that it’s settled in court or can it often be, I seen that it’s often agreed to as well. Right?

Lorne: It’s often agreed to. Yes, it’s often agreed to. You put in writing what the quantum of support is, who’s paying the support, what it’s based on.

Dale: Yeah.

Lorne: And you put into an agreement. And in many cases the payor will give post-dated checks for support and so on. And if the payor doesn’t, the recipient, let’s say it’s the mother, can take the agreement and file the agreement with court so it becomes a court order. And then there’s an organization, a government organization called the Family Responsibility Office. And it’s a huge organization. They’re responsible for enforcing child support orders. And it’s automatic for, it’s called F.R.O., it’s automatic for F.R.O. to enforce the order unless people voluntarily withdraw and both parties have to agree to withdraw. People don’t like to withdraw because it’s great to have a free government agency enforcing.

Dale: Collecting. Yeah.

Lorne: Collecting on your support.

Dale: And how successful is that collecting. From time to time you hear . . .

Lorne: Oh, yeah.

Dale: . . . discouraging stories about that as well.

Lorne: Well, it goes both ways. They can be . . .

Dale: It’s a little better now than it was, I’m assuming.

Lorne: Yeah. Well, they can take away your driver’s license. That’s very effective.

Dale: Pretty effective.

Lorne: If they say to a payor, “If you don’t pay, we’re taking away your driver’s license.”

Dale: Check’s in the mail. Yeah.

Lorne: They could take away your passport. They can garnish your wages, garnish you bank account. So it’s very effective. When we talked about an agreement for child support, it’s important to remember that child support is the right of the child. So no matter what you say in an agreement, it can always be set aside by a court. In other words, if you say in an agreement, “Child support ends at 21.” And then the child grows up to be 21. The child’s still in school and that payor says, “Hey. We have an agreement that says the child support ends at 21.”

Dale: Yeah.

Lorne: And the recipient will say, “He’s still a dependent. He’s still entitled to support. And the court will order support to continue.”

Dale: That would be routine for the court because . . .

Lorne: Yeah.

Dale: . . . of course that’s what the law says.

Lorne: Right. Because the child support is the right of the child. So just because two parties made an agreement, they’re not going to prejudice the child. Right.

Dale: Right.

Lorne: It’s deemed the child is not a party to the agreement.

Dale: Okay. Now if you have a question about any and all interpersonal relationships involved with divorce, that covers a lot of territory, may I say.

Lorne: It’s a lot of issues. Yes.

Dale: All right. 416-360-0740 or 866-744-740.

Recording: You’re listening to an exclusive podcast of Goldhawk Fights Back For You on AM740 Zoomer Radio. Goldhawk Fights Back For You airs Monday to Friday 11:00 to 1:00 on AM740 Zoomer Radio.

Dale: Lorne Fine is here and we’re answering questions about divorce. Actually, Lorne Fine is answering questions about divorce. I’m just here. Let’s get to John who’s calling on his cell phone. Thanks for waiting John. What’s your question for Loren Fine?

John: Yeah. I have a home, joint tenants, I believe. And my ex lived there. We’re not divorced. We’re just separated. And she won’t give me a key to the house so I can inspect it. She won’t let me in the house. And I’m just wondering if she can say I abandoned the house and I’m no longer an owner. Is that possible?

Lorne: Okay. So, how long ago did you separate?

John: It’s been several years now and I’ve made payments and paid the house off and I support her to a degree.

Lorne: Okay. So you made payments on the mortgage?

John: Yes.

Lorne: Okay. There’s no court proceedings or anything?

John: No. No court proceedings at all.

Lorne: Okay. So the short answer is that your ex-wife cannot stop you from going back into the house. It’s a jointly owned house. You’re just as equally entitled to the house as she is. She can’t stop you from going back into the house. In fact, if she does stop you from going back into the house, you can claim something called “occupation rent.” So you can say to her . . .

John: Occupation which? I’m sorry.

Lorne: Occupation rent. So you . . .

John: Rent? Okay.

Lorne: Yes. So you can say to her, let’s says she change the locks, kicked you out, and did the police take you out or you just left by yourself?

John: Oh, no. I just left on my own.

Lorne: Okay. So you . . .

Dale: So you just found out recently you couldn’t get back in or was that always the way?

John: Pretty well been always the way.

Dale: Oh. There you go.

John: But now I want to get in and see the [inaudible 14:22]

John: Okay. She can’t stop you from coming back into the house. In fact, as I said, there’s something called occupation rent. So you can say to her, “If you’re going to stop me from coming back into my house, it’s a jointly owned house,” and let’s say your house is worth $300,000. And in your neighborhood, to rent a house like that is $2,000 a month. You could say to her, “You now owe me $1,000 a month, one half of the rental, if you’re going to keep living in my house.”

John: And can I deduct that from what I’m giving her as support?

Lorne: Well, you’re paying her money and you’re paying her net dollars and spousal support is tax deductible. So really you should consult with a lawyer because you’re probably better off paying her spousal support so you can make it tax deductible. And if you really want your interest in the house and you want to sell your house, then either she agrees to it or you’re going to have to go to court. So you really should consult a lawyer if you want to get your equity in the house because she can’t do what she’s trying to do.

Dale: But John, and John can be confident, can he not, Lorne Fine, that he has the law on his side in this?

Lorne: Nothing’s for sure.

Dale: Nothing’s for sure?

Lorne: Nothing’s for sure and the longer he delays the worse off it is.

Dale: Yeah.

Lorne: He has a good argument, I think, for occupation rent. It doesn’t mean a court is going to order it. But there is a good argument to make for that. So, the delay doesn’t help you. And when you say, “Can you deduct that from your support?” If you have no agreements one way or the other, it’s up to you what you want to do.

John: Yeah.

Dale: Well, John. I hope that helps. Get thee to a lawyer. Did Shakespeare say that? I don’t think so. Probably not. No. In fact he said quite the opposite about lawyers as I recall.

Lorne: He was [inaudible 16:10]

Dale: But John needs a lawyer to . . .

Lorne: Sounds like it.

Dale: . . . walk him through this.

Lorne: Well, you know what? It doesn’t sound like his ex-wife is reasonable.

Dale: Yeah.

Lorne: So I would think that, if he wants his equity in the house, he should consult a lawyer.

Dale: Here’s Frank calling on his cell phone. Frank, do you have a question for Lorne Fine?

Frank: Yes, I do.

Lorne: Go ahead, please.

Frank: I’ve been going through a divorce for three years and we’ve been going to court approximately about 20 times. And every time we’ve gone to court my ex had a chance to fix older court case.

Lorne: I’m sorry?

Frank: Older court case which I did not really have a chance to say my things in court. And they even kind of threatened my lawyers too. What do you do in this case? It’s been about three years. I’m trying to find a half decent lawyer that will stick up for me. I only want my rights.

Dale: Well, do you have a lawyer now?

Frank: And I don’t know what to do in this case.

Dale: Frank, this is a little confusing. Do you have a lawyer now?

Frank: No, I don’t.

Dale: Oh, well, Okay. There, Lorne, what advise can you offer Frank?

Lorne: So, does your wife have a lawyer?

Frank: Yes, she does.

Dale: So she’s going to court and you’re not there?

Frank: No, no, no. I’m going to court too. But every time we go into court, they denied my rights, which I do have proof of it.

Dale: Right.

Lorne: Okay. Alright, so it seems that she has a lawyer and you don’t have a lawyer. And you’re trying to express what you want, trying to express your position to the court and the court is denying you the relief you’re seeking. Is that what’s happening?
Frank: Yes. Yes.

Lorne: Okay. So I would think that it’s in your interest to get a lawyer. You’re obviously not being successful acting on your own behalf. Going to court 20 times doesn’t make a lot of sense to me, especially in three years. That seems to be a lot. I think you need to get a lawyer. And you can call the lawyer referral service at the Law Society to get a lawyer.

Frank: Sorry to cut you off. Every time I get a lawyer, as soon as they find out who the lawyer is, the other side goes to talk to them. Which I do have proof of it [inaudible 18:27]

Dale: Well, they . . . Frank, lawyers talk to each other. There’s nothing wrong with that.

Frank: Yeah. As long as they provide what is right for me. I only want my rights. I don’t want nothing else.

Dale: Frank. I think, thanks for you call. I think the bottom line is you have to go to the Law Society of Upper Canada. They have a 1-800 number. Could somebody look up that 1-800 number of the Law Society and we’ll hand it out? And there’s a local number as well.

Lorne: There’s a 416 number. It’s a lawyer referral service.

Dale: Yeah. Okay.

Lorne: And as far as Frank comment is concerned, lawyers talk to each other, as you said. There’s nothing wrong with that. There’s nothing suspicious about it. You want you lawyers to discuss matters and try to resolve issues.

Dale: Lawyers don’t take a blood oath never to talk to anybody about the case. Or what kind of lawyer would you be if you didn’t talk to the other side? Right?

Lorne: You’d be negligent.

Dale: But it brings up another interesting question. If you’re in the kind of situation that Frank was in and essentially his wife has a lawyer and goes to court for whatever the proceeding’s all about and he doesn’t have one, there can’t be many situations where that would work out well for the person who does not have a lawyer.

Lorne: Well, it’s always better to have a lawyer because it’s very difficult to be informed as a layperson about the law. Not all judges are going to bend over backwards to try to help you. In fact, many judges will treat you like they treat a lawyer.

Dale: I’ve seen them be, in criminal cases, extremely impatient when somebody tried to defend them self.

Lorne: Yeah. It’s because it’s difficult for the judge. Right? The judge is not there to be their lawyer. Right? The judge is there to be a judge. So if someone can’t afford a lawyer, you go to legal aid. You go to the Interior Legal Aid plan and ask them for a certificate so you can get a lawyer. So that doesn’t . . .

Dale: Well, theoretically and generally speaking, Frank should be able to get this certificate to be represented in a divorce proceeding.

Lorne: It depends on his income.

Dale: It depends on how much money he’s got.

Lorne: It depends on what his assets are and so on. I think what’s difficult for many people are those people who are the middle class who are working, don’t qualify for legal aid, and then can’t afford a lawyer because they can be pretty expensive. It’s the middle class that really gets hit in many cases. In fact, I know that, take, in some courts, like the new market court, by the time the matter gets to trial, most people don’t have a lawyer, because they can’t afford it.

Dale: Yeah.

Lorne: And so it’s . . .

Dale: Well, that’s a huge growing problem . . .

Lorne: Huge problem. Huge.

Dale: . . . people going into court when they really need to be represented by somebody who knows the law.

Lorne: And it’s very difficult for the judges. And I don’t know what the statistic is exactly but I think the majority of the cases that get to trial, at the end the people don’t have lawyers. Because they can’t afford to pay lawyers anymore.

Dale: Well how can justice be properly served when that kind of thing happens? It can’t. People are going to be exposed to unfair situations and not necessarily get what the justice system would have allowed or the society.

Lorne: You’re right. We could do that walk. It’s an access to justice question. Right? And there’s talk about reforms to try and make the system simpler, streamlined, less expensive. You’re right. It’s very difficult.

Dale: Here are the numbers if you have a questions for our family and divorce lawyer Lorne Fine. Right it down. 416-360-0740 or 866-740-4740. And while you’re at it, another phone number you can make a note of, we chose the 1-800 number because not everybody out there in Zoomer-land lives in the 416 area. Here it is: 1-800-268-8326. And we’ll repeat that a little later on in the program.

Recording: You’re listening to an exclusive podcast of Goldhawk Fights Back For You on AM740 Zoomer Radio. Goldhawk Fights Back For You airs Monday to Friday 11 to 1:00 on AM740 Zoomer Radio.]

Dale: That sounds a bit like a divorce riff. Doesn’t it in that music? A bit of a, I don’t know. You could argue that. Couldn’t you, Loren Fine?

Lorne: Nice and relaxing.

Dale: Lorne Fine is hear answering questions about family law and about divorce and let me see, let’s go to Winston calling from Brampton. Winston, do you have a question?

Winston: Yes, it has to do with the [inaudible 23:05] at a full-time program. He supposed to graduate in June, the 19th of this year. I was talking to him, he say he didn’t graduate so he is not going to graduate. So what do I do?

Lorne: So he was enrolled in a full-time program of education?

Winston: Yes.

Lorne: And why is he not going to graduate?

Winston: Well, this is the whole thing. He said he didn’t grasp enough of the program. So he going to have to continue.

Lorne: How old is he?

Winston: He is 23.

Lorne: Okay. So he was taking an undergraduate degree?

Winston: Yes, it’s a bachelor of music.

Lorne: Okay. And so he was, a court would look to see if he is applying himself, if he’s trying, why he didn’t graduate, was he going to school, was he not going to school. If he was applying himself and trying to graduate, then your support obligation would continue.

Winston: Okay. If he wasn’t applying himself because there was one before and I think they’re actually stretching this out to make sure that the support continuous.

Lorne: You mean you have another child and you think your ex is making your 23 year old . . .

Winston: Yes.

Lorne: . . . stretching out the obligation?

Winston: Right. Because the one before I didn’t know that she graduated and I paid child support for a year.

Lorne: Right.

Winston: And when I realized that I didn’t have to pay for the year because she didn’t give me any information. The kid didn’t tell me anything at all.

Lorne: Right.

Winston: So a year after she graduated I realized that.

Lorne: So you overpaid support for a year?

Winston: For one year. Yes.

Lorne: And did the court order the overpayment back to you?

Winston: Well, yes. They calculated and they contribute some of it to this one that is in school right now to make it [inaudible 24:57]

Lorne: So you’re not out of pocket, but that’s what a court would do. They would recalculate. But this is your last child?

Winston: Yes.

Lorne: Okay. As far as you last child in which there is a support obligation. So it seems to me, you’re going to want to see his grades. You’re going to want to see his test record. You’re going to want to see documentation as to why he didn’t graduate. But I think that, more likely than not, if he truly is applying himself and tried to complete his education, it’d be hard to terminate support.

Dale: You’d have to go into court and argue that to have it turned around [inaudible 25:33]

Lorne: Yeah. You’d have to go into court and argue it but I don’t think you’d be successful. I don’t think you would because he’s trying.

Dale: Yeah. All right well I hope . . .

Winston: [inaudible 25:39] that he’s trying? If he’s not . . .

Lorne: If he’s failing all his courses, and he’s not going to school, and he’s bumming around then you would have a better . . .

Winston: And he’s working full-time?

Lorne: I’m sorry?

Winston: And he’s working full-time?

Lorne: Oh, if he’s working too? Well, if he’s working and he’s doing lousy in school, and he’s not going to school, then you have a better argument.

Winston: Okay.

Dale: All right, Winston. I hope that helps. In that kind of situation, if it’s a tall contentious though, it would have to be decided by court.

Lorne: Absolutely.

Dale: Okay. All right.

Lorne: You would have to go to court to stop you obligation.

Dale: To stop the obligation. Otherwise, if you stopped it all on your own because you thought something. Blah, blah, blah. Then suddenly you’re in arrears and you’re in big trouble. That’s the [inaudible 26:20] right?

Lorne: That’s right. Exactly. No, the support continues until it’s changed by a further court order or agreement.

Dale: Okay. Here’s Bill on the line from Burlington. Bill, do you have a question for Lorne Fine?

Bill: Yes, I do. My ex, she left me for another man and then after 22 years. And what happened is that she got part of my C.P.P. And I married again for another 20 years to my new wife. And then the bank manager told me she’s not entitled to my pension if something happens to me, my ex is. Is that true?

Lorne: Okay. So you have a wife number one?

Bill: Wife number one, yes.

Lorne: You separated from your wife after a 22 year marriage and your C.P.P. was divided?

Bill: Well, yeah. She did. Yeah. And I had to prove that she left me for another man. And then she . . .

Lorne: It doesn’t really matter why she left you. And then you got a second, it doesn’t matter as far as property is concerned. No one cares and the judge doesn’t care. And the law doesn’t care as to why she left you as far as property division is concerned. And now you’re married a second time for another 20 year. Is that it?

Bill: Yes.

Lorne: Okay. So C.P.P. credits are automatically divided and you have to apply for the division of C.P.P. credits. And I assume that’s what your first wife did. So they divide the C.P.P. credits automatically between you and her . . .

Bill: Yes, they did. Yeah.

Lorne: . . . accumulated during the course of the marriage.

Bill: Mm-hmm. Yes.

Lorne: So I would imagine that any division has already occurred and the government has already divided your C.P.P. credits accumulated?

Bill: They already did. Yes. She got [inaudible 27:53]

Lorne: Yeah. So you have yours and she has hers.

Bill: Right. Yeah.

Lorne: So now, wife number two, and you’re still married to wife number two. Right?

Bill: Yes. Number two, I’ve been married to her for close to 20 years now.

Lorne: Okay. So do you have any concerns about . . .

Bill: Well, if something happens to me, the bank manager told me she’s not entitled to my pension.

Lorne: Oh, you have an employment pension or C.P.P.?

Bill: C.P.P.

Lorne: Well, C.P.P. is not going to continue past your death.

Dale: No, no, no. But he’s talking about right now. He’s splitting his C.P.P. with his first wife and he’s married a second time. Does the second wife have any entitlement to the C.P.P. that’s already split?

Bill: Yeah, right. Does she have any survival . . .

Dale: Or is he allowed to stop having the first C.P.P. split the first time, by the first wife?

Lorne: The first wife already got her C.P.P. credits. When they split, she got half and he got half. They’re already divided. It’s done. Okay. So his C.P.P., he has a C.P.P. and he’s married for 20 years to wife number two. When he dies, the C.P.P. doesn’t continue. Right? It ends. So his second wife is not going to get the benefit of the C.P.P. credits.

Bill: Yeah, but what about survivor benefits?

Dale: Well, you get a survivor benefit but . . .

Lorne: Yeah, it’ll be a survivor benefit.

Dale: . . . it isn’t very much. You know that?

Bill: Oh, it’s not. Oh, okay.

Dale: No. I don’t know if you know that offhand but . . .

Bill: [inaudible 29:12] my new wife.

Lorne: I don’t know the amount but it’s not going to be very much.

Dale: It’s pretty small. No, it’s not very much. I hope that helps Bill. But thanks very much. Whoops. What are we doing here with the phones? I hope that helps. Let’s see if we can get . . . no we can’t. If you didn’t get through, send an e-mail. We can pass it along to Lorne Fine.

Lorne: Yeah. Or you can go on-line to my website.

Dale: What are your coordinates?

Lorne: My coordinates.

Dale: You coordinates please, sir.

Lorne: You can go to my website www.torontodivorcelaw.com or you can e-mail me at .

Dale: Okay.

Lorne: No problem.

Dale: Okay. You’ll come back? We haven’t discouraged you yet?

Lorne: I’ll always come back. I always like being here with you.

Dale: All right, that’s great. Lorne Fine, he’s our family and divorce law specialist.

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